VisionTech Partners with Ben Pidgeon - Re-Broadcast

An easy kill is when someone says I have an $80M valuation and no revenue.

In this episode, I talk with Ben Pidgeon, Executive Director of Vision Tech Partners, the largest angel investor network in Central Indiana. In the last year, (At the time of recording) they’ve deployed $2.6 million across 8 transactions, with check sizes getting bigger. The network consists of approximately 110 investors that get to decide if they would like to invest in an opportunity, typically focused on life science and technology, with 11-30 angels participating per round.

Ben explains the investment process starting with a screening of about 300 companies per year. At any given time, there are about 20-30 companies on his agenda. The top six companies are then invited to a screening committee meeting, where they give a 20-minute pitch. At the end of that meeting, the investors rank the best opportunity, and that company gets an invitation to go on a roadshow across the state. From there, Vision Tech Partners are able to get a soft level interest amount, and the company enters the diligence phase where research and interviews are conducted. That information is then provided to investors and they then invest in the company.

Topics In This Episode

  • Information that is necessary for a pitch meeting

  • Difference between a top-down and bottom-up approach for valuation

  • How to show a competitive advantage and market differentiation

  • Most awkward moment in a pitch

  • Most impressive moment in a pitch

  • Success rate of companies as they move through the different steps of the investment process from screening to investment  

  • Red flags of valuation versus revenue amounts

  • The Three H’s of building a team

To learn more

Visiontech-partners.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VisionTechPartners/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/visiontechangel

Email: bpidgeon@visiontech-partners.com


Transcript

Mike Kelly:                         
Hey there. Welcome to the podcast. Today we're doing something new. We're going to re-broadcast an old podcast. It's going to be Ben Pidgeon with VisionTech.

Mike Kelly:                         
I picked this one in particular because I think Ben does a great job of one, describing the VisionTech process, which is great, but then when we talk through what the VisionTech investors are looking for I think he does a great job of talking about the analysis that they do whether it's bottom up or looking at how you differentiate in the market or how they want to go out and talk to happy customers, what kind of traction they look for. I just think he does a great job of kind of setting up what that early traction looks like that those earlier investors are looking at.

Mike Kelly:                         
So, if you've heard this one before give it a listen again. If you haven't, I'm very excited to introduce you to it 'cause I thought it was one of the better episodes of last year. Thanks so much.

Mike Kelly:                         
Welcome to the Startup Competitors Podcast. I'm your host Mike Kelly. You can learn more about us at startupcompetitors.com. Today I have Ben Pigeon with VisionTech Partners. Ben, welcome to the podcast.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Thanks for having me.

Mike Kelly:                         
All right. Well, tell us a little bit about VisionTech and what you guys do and your role there.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. So, I'm the Executive Director for VisionTech Partners. VisionTech Partners is the largest angel network in central Indiana. We've got approximately 110 investors that individually get to decide if they would like to invest or express interest in an opportunity and it's interesting, this past year we've maybe deployed $2.6 million across eight transactions. We've seen the cheque sizes get bigger this year, which is exciting, and the number of angels that are participating in each round can vary anywhere from 11 to 30. We'll take cheques from investor as low as $5000, which is kind of a nice structure. I don't see anyone else in the space doing it like that.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Tend to focus on life science and technology opportunities but also are in the post friends and family round and maybe pre-series A, late seed round is kind of where I see us expressing the most interest in, but I enjoy the space and I've been there for just over a year.

Mike Kelly:                         
Maybe at a high level, why don't you talk through the process of ...

Ben Pidgeon:             
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
If a company was interested, what does that actually look like to get them to the point where they're putting a cheque in the bank?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Sure. That's a great question. So, we screen about 300 companies a year and at any given time I've got maybe 20 or 30 that are kind of on my agenda and I'll invite the top six that I think that are market ready, they've got a good business plan, maybe a lead investor's already established and they get invited to a screening committee meeting and in that format they get about a 20 minute pitch. We do five minutes of Q&A with the founding team and the committee and then we have an [inaudible 00:03:05] discussion.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, we get through six of those in a morning. Usually they're on the first Wednesday or second Wednesday of the month. At the end of that meeting we force rank the best one and then that best one gets an invitation to go on a road show with us where we go around the states. We start in Lafayette on Monday night, go to Fort Wayne on Tuesday. Wednesday we're in Bloomington and in Indianapolis on Thursday night. So, there's this feedback loop that happens throughout the week that we give our entrepreneurs. You know, hey, we didn't talk about the market size enough or we need to know more about the business model or talk more about the Board or the terms of the deal.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, by the time that you're seeing the Thursday presentation, which we record, it's the best format that we would like to see. With the recording I send out a survey that includes some questions on, you know, what did you think of the market size? What'd you think about the management team? What'd you think about the business model? Would you like to invest? How much would you like to invest if diligence is good? What are the top three concerns related to the opportunity? So, I take the dollar amounts that are expressed in that as a soft level of interest and if the soft level of interest is above $100000 then we move into a diligence phase.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, the diligence phase we're reviewing maybe the lead investor's diligence. We will likely talk to other Board members to see how coachable the founding team is. We'll do interviews with other investors to see what kind of updates the investors are getting. If they've been in it for a year and they've not gotten any updates that's kind of a big red flag. Then we also do interviews with the customers, which is really ... You know, you've gotta get the voice of the customer to kind of say, what do they like about it? Is this a, "I can't live without kind of product?" Or is it a, "Yeah, it's nice to have but if something better comes along I'm going to switch."

Mike Kelly:                         
Right.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Actually I jumped over a step. We'll publish that diligence for our angels to review again, have some dialogue and see if they would like to re-commit or reaffirm their original soft interest. Sometimes investors increase it based on the findings in the diligence. Sometimes they don't like what's in the diligence, they don't believe the opportunity anymore. I've actually had that happen this year a couple times where I've started an interest maybe at 130, 140, and then we end up at 240.

Mike Kelly:                         
Nice. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. So, obviously ... So, you're a little bit different than the last few guests we've had on the podcast because you're on the other side of the table. Right? So, you're not, at least right now, you're not an entrepreneur launching a startup. So, to me, the conversation here is maybe a little bit more broad in terms of what you see versus what you experience, right?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Kelly:                         
So, when you're sitting down with entrepreneurs who are going through this process, what's your experience on either the strengths or weaknesses of how they view kind of the market that they're in, competition, how much they take that into account and whether their projection for how much of the market they can own, what kind of features are important? Just all the different ways that you can leverage that as part of that early strategy and pitch.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Kelly:                         
Can you maybe share some examples of your experience there? The good and the bad?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Sure. Yeah. I'll try to oversimplify if I can, but I've seen ... You know, you often hear when you talk about market, that bottoms up or the top down approach. Right? So, the top down approach is probably the easiest number to come up with but it's also the most difficult to believe as an investor because what likely happens is that top down approach will include revenue or annual spend data that is not directly relevant to your product or what you're trying to solve.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah, and the top down approach is, this is a $60 billion market.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
If I capture 10% of it that means I'm making $6 billion in revenue.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
Therefore, you should invest in me. That's the top down.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right. So, like to drive into that a little bit more, you know, we'll hear a pitch that's like, "I've got a bowling glove and every time you wear the bowling glove you're going to roll 300." You know, the bowling market's $10 billion a year and if I can capture, you know, 1% of that we're going to be in great space and as an investor you're going to make a butt load of money.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
The problem with that though is you start peeling back the layers of the onion and start saying, "Well, okay, talk to me about that $10 billion" and ...

Mike Kelly:                         
How much of that is spent on bowling gloves today?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Well, right. Then you start to figure out that that number includes real estate, it includes alcohol sales and it includes apparel on bowling balls or, you know, bowling balls have sold for $300 a piece or something like that.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, you know, you're really ... You know, even to say that you're in the apparel space within that $10 billion market is a leap of faith. So, you want to ... You know, and if that's your argument to the investor and there's nothing more beyond that it comes across as very unprepared. So, we really prefer the bottoms up approach, which is very difficult to execute on because you've gotta be very specific in terms of your market. You know, we saw a pitch this week that was in the EdTech space and they had a very specific market vertical. They knew how the market was funded and they knew what the buying process was and they knew the value that they created.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, when you start to think about your bottoms up approach of, you know, there might be 3000 people but they're willing to pay $100000 for the solution, [inaudible 00:09:08] company is probably at that point but you're getting a better sense of kind of how big this can be and you're getting a clear picture on the sale cycle because it plays into what the value in, and the problem that you're solving, is it really a problem? You get a sense for that, but yeah, generally we prefer the bottoms up analysis.

Mike Kelly:                         
Got it. Then outside of that analysis, when you just look at competitors in the space or comps, right, even looking at past exits in the space, [inaudible 00:09:46] you guys think about what does a real liquidity event in this space look like, can you talk a little bit about what is desirable there versus undesirable? Like things that are almost a leap of faith because they're like maybe that similar but, you know, not similar enough that it's believable?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. I mean, in the pitch you really look for that market differentiation. You know, you want to see a competitive advantage. You know, what's interesting actually as you look at some of the exits and maybe compare that against the competitors, you know, some of the competitors that you're competing against aren't solving the problem that you're proposing to solve for a variety of reasons and they may be all valid but it's gotta be believable. You know, you see situations where, you know, maybe the market leaders aren't solving this problem because it's not a big enough problem, they can't make enough money. That should be a signal, right? So, you've gotta evaluate that very carefully.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Maybe the competition is, you know, a tech company and solving the problem the way that you're going to solve it would require a huge shift within the organization, you know, the large market leader would have to pivot essentially into a new space and that's actually a barrier because you're rewriting code and you're hiring new talented people to solve a solution. So, there's a variety of reasons but, you know, I get it's frustrating when there's not a sufficient market analysis on the competition. But I really like seeing the side by side comparison on products and features, seeing what's in the market. You know, who do you compete against, what are the product features that you have, and a graph, and to see that side by side is a great piece of data to have and share.

Mike Kelly:                        
In the diligence process that you guys run, which I believe is a little bit different opportunity to opportunity, but in general, in that diligence process that you guys run, how much attention do you guys give and maybe if there is a process there that is kind of rinse and repeat to some level, can you talk about that around understanding the competitive landscape, where this thing really fits in and trying to build that working model in the minds of the people, the diligence team, for kind of what's a real opportunity here?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. That's a tough question too because it is such a ... You know, each opportunity is very, very different but I'll talk through an example that I was able to do.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah, and just reinforce that. I know last night you and I were talking and like you have stints, you know, that surgically get inserted into people's arms and then you have software SaaS products for real estate.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Right? Is it like not even remotely the same.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right. Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
Right? So, I just ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Totally. Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
To paint that picture for the listener.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
It's a hard problem you're trying to solve.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know, I think ... So, what I'll do is I'll isolate a conversation that I would have with a customer. So, there's examples where you can get into a situation with the customer and say, "How do you like the product? How do you use it? How did you evaluate the purchasing and the decision making process of this?" So, in the diligence process that I did earlier this year, I was able to talk to an investor and a customer, so it was kind of a rare combination but they outlined ... It was a Fortune 500 company and they outlined the evaluation steps that they took as it relates to competition. So, they had identified a competitor and highlighted the output as well as the cost and compared that with the standard measure today and then with the technology that we were investing in.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, getting insight from the investor/customer in a sense that, you know, we evaluated current procedure, we evaluated the Rolls-Royce solution and then we evaluated this third option, and the third option produced the results that were on level with the Rolls-Royce, but at a third of the cost. And you start to see a clear picture on how the decision making process is and why the technology is going to be adopted.

Mike Kelly:                         
Give the counter example of that where in the voice of the customer you didn't find that kind of breakthrough, "Ah-ha, okay, it's clear" just, you know, talking to a couple of these customers, why this needs to exist or where they position themselves in the market. Can you give maybe a counter example of that where you go to that conversation and, you know, the outcome is, you know, we have more questions than answers now that we've talked to that customer.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. So, there was actually, you know, another kind of opportunity that I'm in the middle of the diligence process on, you know, and I think there's a to be determined at this point but it's lead to some additional questions. Actually in a former career I was working with one of the guys that knows of this technology and I reached out to him to chat about it and he said, "I know exactly who these guys are, I know exactly what they do and I know what their value proposition is." I need to know more about the business model. I need to know more about why I should be using their technology. So, I'm going to take that information, basically have a conversation with one of their customers and hone in on the, "Hey, what are the business levers that cause you to use this widget over that widget?" You know, "How much value does that create? Does it make your job easier?"

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, those elements are, you know, interesting, but at the same time though, you know, we had somebody pitch kind of this medical device company and the founding team kind of came across as, "Hey, you know, this is a huge problem in the European market, this procedure's starting to be adopting in the U.S. because it's lower risk and yet the current solutions on there are very low-tech and my solution is high-tech, it's the first of it's kind and it's going to be widely adopted." You know, they left the room and we had ... Since this was a life science company and one of the doctors actually did the procedure and totally pulled the plug on it and basically said, "You know, I do the procedure that they're talking about and it's not a problem."

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Now, there could be some fallacies in there that I think you need to be conscious of but that definitely takes a lot of the steam out of ...

Mike Kelly:                         
Right.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know, a presentation.

Mike Kelly:                         
I think I would be remiss if I didn't do some quick lightning round questions, which means I'm going to ask a pretty quick simple question and you can answer it as in depth or shortly as you want, or you can just say pass if you'd prefer not to answer.

Mike Kelly:                         
There's no "gotchas" here.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
You fully have the right to say, "I'm not answering that."

Ben Pidgeon:                    
All right. All right.

Mike Kelly:                         
All right. So, most ... So, you've been doing this a little over a year now? Right?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Kelly:                         
All right. So, most awkward moment in a pitch in the last year.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Most awkward moment in a pitch. That's a great question. Again, life science company, we had somebody say that they had a certain client in the city, that client was in the room and basically said, "Yeah, no, we don't use them."

Mike Kelly:                         
That's awesome.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Very awkward.

Mike Kelly:                         
I'm glad you didn't use an example of one I pitched 'cause that would be awkward for me right now. Okay. So, let's go to the other side of that. Most impressive moment in a pitch where you could tell, just sitting back, 'cause I know you're kind of watching the room while the pitches are happening, right, where you could see that they just won points with the people in the room.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know, I'll answer that a little bit differently actually. There's not this ah-ha moment but you can tell the level of interest with the group by the quality of questions and the length of questioning that happens after the pitch. There's an almost I would say a direct correlation between the questions that are coming from the investors, you know, how deep are they getting in some of the questioning and how long does it go? You know, if you've rounded out your pitch and there's two or three questions that's probably a signal that something was missed, it's not compelling enough, the presentation, you need to shift something.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
But if there's, you know, if I find myself thinking, "Oh my gosh, you know, some of us started this meeting at 6:00 and it's 8:30" I'm thinking about trying to wrap it up.

Mike Kelly:                         
So, you guys invest in ... I'm trying to do the math really quick off the top of my head, 5% of the deals you see?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Ish?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Ish.

Mike Kelly:                         
How many ... Think of that funnel, like somebody reaches out to you and you take a look at the opportunity and it never moves forward to they get to go on that next level of just talking to the small focus groups that you build out, to they do the road show, to they get through the diligence process. If you had to assign like, you know, kill ratios at each step in that funnel, and I know you probably don't have this data off the top of your head, you're just coming up with numbers on the spot, what do you think those look like? How many ... What's that funnel success rate look like?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know ... So, maybe of the 300 companies, you know, I would say that there's probably 100 that are ... I'm guessing, this is shooting from the hip but there's probably 100 that are interesting to look at and actually have a conversation about. A quick and easy kill is when somebody says, "I've got an $80 million valuation with no revenue." I've had two conversations like that in the last two weeks and it amazes me. That's a really easy and quick way to get to a no.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, let me peel that back a little bit if I can. If you pitch your idea on a valuation and a revenue and whoever you're talking to is qualified, you know that they're a qualified investor. They write cheques and their response is, "Come back to me when you've got a lead investor" that's usually a signal of, "I don't believe your valuation. Get somebody else to agree to it and then I'll look a little bit more at it."

Mike Kelly:                         
Right. So, flip that on its head and I'm going to force you to go back to the funnel question 'cause I love what this is pulling out. But let's flip that on its head for a second. What if that same, and I'm genuinely curious, I have no opinion here, what if that same person came to you and said, "I don't know what the valuation should be, I was hoping that through this process you guys could help us figure that out" ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Sure.

Mike Kelly:                         
Is that a black mark or is that a positive?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
No. I think that definitely sends a signal of somebody that's willing to be coached and they want to make a transaction happen. They're not ... You know, that's a signal to me at least that whoever this is is focused on the end game of an exit. You know? They're more interested in receiving funds so that they can focus on building the company, which is what we want them to do.

Mike Kelly:                         
Right. Not, "I don't want to give up the extra 4% to you guys" ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
"Because I need to own more of it."

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Right.

Mike Kelly:                         
But like, "Yeah, 4%. Who cares. Let's go."

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Let's build this thing.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Okay. Got it. All right, good. All right. So ... All right. So, maybe 100 deals come out or go into the kind of next phase. What's the success rate from there then?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Well, then, you know, of those 100 I'd say that it dwindles down pretty quick. You know, we take those 100 and probably get them through the screening and ...

Mike Kelly:                         
And the number one reason or maybe top couple of reasons why a deal might die out of that 100?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
A variety of things. You know, it could be that ... You know, it could be a cowboy. You know, somebody that's kind of not willing to bring on team members or take advice. It could be that the market's not believable. It still could be actually that there's a top down analysis and there's a lot of question on, you know, do you really have access to the market that you think you have access to? It could be lack of revenue. It could be lack of a Board. It could be silly terms like only offering common stock. You know, but you can work through some of that stuff too though. So, it's ... You know, not identifying your team, that would be a really big one I think. I don't think anybody can do the entire job ...

Mike Kelly:                         
Right.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Of the sales guy, the strategy guy. You know, somebody once told me you gotta have a hipster, hacker and hustler on a team.

Mike Kelly:                         
Nice.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
The three H's. So, if you don't have those three H's you're ... You know, the hipster is kind of the visionary. The hacker's your sales guy ... Or the hustler is your sales guy and the hacker's your kind of coder or the operational guy.

Mike Kelly:                         
Right. I like that.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
That's kind of cool.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Does that make me a hipster?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You're all three.

Mike Kelly:                         
I guess it, yeah, depends on the company. I probably am all three depending on the company. All right. Okay, so then you get to the focus group. So, then some smaller number deals get to those smaller private screenings, right, where you have the ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Screening committee.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah, screening committee.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Kelly:                         
Then if you were to distill maybe the top couple of reasons why a screening committee might say, "Yeah, I'm not sure this one's a good fit to move forward." What do you think that is? Or is it more like, "No, we like all of these but this one is the clear winner and we like this one the best."

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. When I was talking to those reasons earlier, that's actually what I was thinking of, is the answers from the screening committee. So, I've had the screening committee basically ... You know what it? It's tough. We could have six companies that are all generating revenue, reasonable terms and, you know, the five for whatever reason are competing against somebody that's just got an up and to the left revenue growth. You know, the other five are good opportunities, they're just not in the stage that this one company is, and they get the invitation to go on the road.

Mike Kelly:                         
Do you ever go back to those opportunities?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. Yeah, so I'm working on a tracking feature within our process and I think the tracking feature's going to be really nice because I can look at the screening committee and say, "You know, these six companies I've been tracking for the last six to nine months and they've hit the milestones that they've told me they were going to hit." So, let's give them a, you know ...

Mike Kelly:                         
A second look.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
A second look.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, yeah. Absolutely.

Mike Kelly:                         
Awesome. All right. Then last stage of the funnel then. So, they do the road show around Indiana and pitch to the different groups geographically and then those groups express interest.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Kelly:                         
In either get funded or don't. So, maybe in that ... So, that's more like the due diligence process. In the actual due diligence process number one, number two reason a deal might die?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know, a big reason why I see stuff kind of delay is somebody that kind of comes in and says, "We're two weeks away from launch."

Mike Kelly:                         
Great, I'll wait two weeks.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
That's right.

Mike Kelly:                         
Of course.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
That's exactly right.

Mike Kelly:                         
That's what I would say.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
You know, you have ... Okay, so that means that you don't need our money to launch. So, we're going to wait and see what the results are of that launch and if it's adopted.

Mike Kelly:                         
Right.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
That's ... I've seen that happen. I've seen it happen where it's really unfortunate too actually. We had a lot of interest in a really awesome technology and the founder came up with an 11th hour request that was a deal killer. I don't want to get too much in detail but it was totally unreasonable. They were provided the reasoning behind it and from three sources, three independent sources and yet the request for funding was withdrawn.

Mike Kelly:                         
That's going to be ... I know nothing about the situation so I'm just guessing.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
So, that's going to be something like we need to double the valuation in the last minute or some key deal term like that?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Sure. Yeah. So, it could be like a ... You know, it could be an employment contract. It could be something related to patent.

Mike Kelly:                         
Okay.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
It could be a variety of stuff.

Mike Kelly:                         
Okay. Got it.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
Don't need to pry. Okay. Good. So, then I guess if people want to learn more about VisionTech Partners where do they find you guys? How do they get in touch with you if they have questions for you?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. VisionTech, we're on the web. You can find you at visiontech-partners.com. Follow us on Facebook, we've got a Facebook account and a Twitter feed but I believe Facebook's probably the prominent one. Just search for VisionTech Partners.

Mike Kelly:                         
I'm new to this whole podcasting thing, so normally a professional podcaster would've ended right there when they asked you how to get in touch with you. I have now another question that just occurred to me.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Okay.

Mike Kelly:                         
If somebody listening is actually interested in being an investor ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
And is here in Indiana ...

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah.

Mike Kelly:                         
And has interest, what's the best way for them to reach out? Same thing?

Ben Pidgeon:                    
So, reach out to either myself or Oscar or Tony. My email is bpidgeon@visiontech-partners.com. I'd be happy to field any questions.

Mike Kelly:                         
And as somebody who regularly emails Ben, I will put this disclaimer out there, have forgiveness in your heart for the fact that you will not reply right away. He has a lot of email. It may take a week to get a response but you will get a response.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Yeah. Thanks.

Mike Kelly:                         
Yeah. No problem.

Ben Pidgeon:                    
Appreciate it. It was fun to have this conversation. I really enjoyed the invite and this was a blast to do.

Mike Kelly:                         
Awesome. Thanks for coming on.