In this episode, I talk with Dan Johnson of App Tool Werks, a shop to innovate, build, and market software services. They currently have three products in the app store, Flatzap, JobMe, and Call Deck, and two more products in development right now. App Tool Werks is a self-funded endeavor with 15 employees.
FlatZap is the flagship product of App Tool Werks, as it was the first commercially available product of the company. It is a photo management system, allowing you to capture, organize, and save images by location. Many customers of this product work in construction, and use it to take pictures of job sites to send back to their offices. In the future, they are looking to partner with other forums for other avenues of product integration. To learn more about FlatZap and their other products, visit their website here.
Topics In This Episode
Cultivating Product Ideas Internally versus Externally
Understanding product use based on the customers that use the product
Selling a product when a company may already have the technology in place
Learning who to sell to within a company
The importance of geolocation in niche products
Overcoming a leadership deficit once the company reaches the point of scalable growth
To Learn More
Mike Kelly: Welcome to the Startup Competitors Podcast. Today, we have Dan Johnson from App Tool Werks. Dan, welcome.
Dan Johnson: Oh, thanks a lot. Glad to be here.
Mike Kelly: All right. Why don't we start ... Well, actually, I have set a little context. I heard you give a pitch at Launch Fishers for FlatZap, which got me to reach out to you to hear the FlatZap pitch, so I want to do that. And then we're going to circle back and talk a little bit, maybe also have you give the pitch for App Tool Werks. But let's start with FlatZap, which is one of your products that you guys have built, and maybe start with that elevator pitch.
Dan Johnson: Okay, great. So, FlatZap is the FlatZap photo management system. What that does is, it allows you to capture, organize, and save images by location. So, what happens is we comprised of both mobile application, both in iOS and Android, and also back office dashboard, where you actually go on into the field, for example. It's used, for example, at a construction site, because that seemed to be a lot of the customers. They can take a picture of the location, it draws a geofence around that location. The point of capture happens with the mobile app. And then that picture is then moved back into the cloud. The location is identified and goes back into the cloud, and it's available instantly in the back office organized by that location.
Dan Johnson: For, say, a construction firm who has lots of projects, and there are a lot of utility pictures taken on those projects; might be pre-construction, during construction, might be issues or different things that happened in that process. There literally could be thousands of pictures taken, and those pictures are all organized by location automatically, and then brought back. Whereas, in the past, they might have had to come in and cable up a phone, or bring in a flash drive, or any one of a number of ways, email, but always kind of challenging to keep track of those images and get them back into the office into the right job folders.
Mike Kelly: All right. And then just real quick status of the product FlatZap? So, any data, any metrics you're willing to share? Number of pictures, number of clients, anything that's going to help paint a picture for where you are in that product journey?
Dan Johnson: Sure. We've launched the product commercially in the fourth quarter of last year. Right now, we're continuing to add new customers weekly. It is a business product, and it's a SaaS product. So, we're adding companies in various sizes. And each company pays per month, per user. Right now, I think we're around 30 companies, and somewhere in the neighborhood were about 50 to 60,000 images that we have under repository. On average, companies were adding about 700 to 1,000 pictures in the first month. So, immediately, it becomes a really important part of their business, in many ways, transformational, because it eliminates a lot of the communication time, productivity. You don't have the back office having to call the field personnel. They simply take the picture and it ends up in the back office organized automatically.
Mike Kelly: Do you find most of your companies are happy to use the product as is with your current interfaces? Or are they asking you to then help them integrate that product with other ways that they currently manage different documents and photos in different systems that they have?
Dan Johnson: That's a great question. We have our own kind of closed-in ecosystem that we manage the whole process. But it's becoming more apparent as we talk to more companies. And we have added more features based upon feedback from the customers, is that we need the ability to integrate that into third party software, CRMs, other very industry-specific software that they're currently using. And we've already built the APIs for that. We already are in the process of doing that. And we're taking it on a case-by-case basis on a customer-to-customer basis. And we'll do those integrations. And then we'll have them for any future customers who are using that platform. But that is gonna be a very big part of our business and our ability to expand our customer base.
Mike Kelly: Nice. The other thing when I heard your pitch originally that I thought of. So, we have one of the companies I'm involved with is also in the CRE space. And is that a SaaS offering for like mall operators, people who own skyscrapers, like anybody? If you own a big building, you got a bunch of tenants and you're moving them around. It's a product for that. Which when I heard your pitch, you do this way better than we do, which made me think like, "Well, wait. Why would we go build that? That looks awesome."
Mike Kelly: Which led me to the question, like, I also can't be the only person thinking of that, right? So, this is a real problem that you're solving. And one of the things that's really nice about your product is how focused it is. Have you done any partnerships with any other firms or SaaS products in the space where they integrate your product as a feature or a module as part of what they offer?
Dan Johnson: We don't yet, but we anticipate that will happen. I mean, really, it is a very efficient product, and it's technically very easy for the, say, field personnel to use. What's been interesting is the use cases that have come up, because we have clients that I would have never thought about. I guess, like any business, you think, "Oh, this is who we're trying to target or who we think we're going to solve a problem for." But we've got one person that does nothing but take pictures of silos. They just take like one picture, then they go to the next silo and take a picture. And it's interesting, you know. And so-
Mike Kelly: That's a job, right? They're not just like some weird farm creepers-
Dan Johnson: Yeah. I don't know.
Mike Kelly: ... driving around through the country taking photos of silos?
Dan Johnson: Maybe it's a hobby. Maybe they just like silos. It's pretty crazy, but it's just amazing, all the different jobs that are out there, and all the different potential applications for it. We have another company. It's a satellite dish installer that takes photos before and after, and that kind of thing. But there's just a lot of use cases that we're not even thinking about that are coming up. And it's interesting and fun to see that happen.
Mike Kelly: Super interesting. All right. Let's rewind, pop the stack a little bit. App Tool Werks. Give me the 60-second pitch. App Tool Werks, who are you, what do you guys do?
Dan Johnson: The overall big picture, App Tool Werks is ... We wanted to create a shop that would innovate, build and then market software services. Really, everything that we're doing has to do with mobile, and it has a lot to do with cloud-based. And so, we're excited about the products that we're doing. We have three products right now that are in the app store, and we have two more that are in development right now. FlatZap is probably the flagship product, because it was the first commercially available product that we developed. We have another product called Jobme, which allows candidates to post themselves up within the app, for free, and allows employers to find those candidates very easily. And the whole idea behind that was that pretty much everything you see is job-centric, and this was really candidate-centric. And so, it's all geocoded to where, how far that candidate is willing to travel to their job, and where the job is located.
Dan Johnson: So, if you're an employer and you're looking for a very specific type of position, you can very quickly find it on Jobme. And then the candidates that are within the driving distance that they've decided would come up as potential candidates you could talk to. So, it's very much an immediate connection. And if anybody is looking for job, it's a really challenging process to do it the traditional way. And this cuts that out and tries to get the two parties together a lot faster.
Dan Johnson: And then the other product's called Call Deck. That product is just launching probably. There's a version out now. We have a new, a major overhaul happening in the next week that we're just final testing on. But that product allows you to create groups of contacts, and then organize those contacts, and share those with others through a mobile app. We call them decks. And so, you might have a deck for family members, or soccer team parents, or your employee list. But you can share that deck with other people, and you can create this collaborative type of organization to something that's really highly unorganized right now. It allows you to isolate your personal and your work and other activities.
Mike Kelly: And then I see on the website, you have CitiQuest coming soon?
Dan Johnson: CitiQuest is one of the products in development. And then also, we have another product we have not released a name on yet that we're really excited about soon as well.
Mike Kelly: Can you talk about CitiQuest?
Dan Johnson: We'll come back for round two.
Mike Kelly: Yeah, I know. That's good. I guess, maybe some high-level questions around all of that. Are these internal ideas that you guys are coming up with as a team and saying, "Let's take the market?" Or do you have entrepreneurs coming to you and saying, "Hey, I have this thing. We're looking for a partner to do this with?"
Dan Johnson: That's a great question. I think, really, I'm probably the chief innovator, but was certainly from anybody in the company. But we're all doing it. We're doing it right now all internally, so we're building our own products, and we're bringing them in the market, and we're excited about that. I think we've got some good things in the work field and some things out.
Dan Johnson: But what's interesting is we've had other people approached us for that very other question which is, "Would you be willing to take my idea and bring it to market?" That's something that we've talked about. We might do that. And we'd have to think about how we would arrange that business model. But certainly, it's something that we might ... We have a certain expertise in these various areas that might come real handy to be able to do that kind of thing.
Mike Kelly: When you're ready to go down that path, let me know. We'll grab beer in South Carolina.
Dan Johnson: Yeah.
Mike Kelly: I'll scare you straight.
Dan Johnson: Yeah, absolutely.
Mike Kelly: I've done that.
Dan Johnson: Right now, we have total control. Soup to nuts, we got everything that we're controlling it all in that. That would be different to head another outside parties into it. I'm sure you will scare me straight.
Mike Kelly: Yeah. Thanks for the ... Now that you've done this, by the way, you're only going to get more request from people who listen to this. They're like, "Oh. If you're thinking about, we could talk about it."
Dan Johnson: Okay. Yeah, right.
Mike Kelly: All right. Let's switch gears back to FlatZap. Thanks for that diversion. That's super cool and-
Dan Johnson: That's one.
Mike Kelly: Congratulations, Dan. I mean, there's a lot-
Dan Johnson: It's a lot of fun.
Mike Kelly: There's a lot of people who talk about doing that. And the fact that you and the team have actually done it, launched three products, have two more in the works. Dude, that ... Seriously, congrats.
Dan Johnson: It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun. And it's fun just to see these things come together.
Mike Kelly: All right. FlatZap. When you think of competitors in the market space for FlatZap, who comes to mind?
Dan Johnson: It's a unique space. There is one direct competitor that we've run across. We haven't run across to them from a business standpoint. We just know that they exist. That's the only other direct competitor that we're aware of. Although, I think that for us, it's probably not so much that. It's more various CRM platforms or various industry specific platforms that maybe build their own product within their platform. And if the company is using that platform, they really need to bring on another outside SaaS product to be able to solve that problem. And that's where we need to really try to do as many integrations as we can to work around that.
Mike Kelly: So, to make that tangible, that means if you're going out to a prospect today and you ask them, "How are you solving this today," they're using Salesforce, and they're just uploading the photos to Salesforce?
Dan Johnson: Yeah, that could happen like that. But I think the more likely might be they're using a very industrious-specific platform that isn't one that we probably ... We may never even have heard of it or might be very, very specific. Like, for example, we had a requests the other day for building inspecting group that wanted us to integrate into their platform. Well, there's a specific platform that this government entity uses that specifically tailors to building inspectors. And so, there's all kinds of these kind of platforms out there. Some of them have some kind of photo management to some degree. But none of them are really that sophisticated, because it's just an add-on to their service. It's not something they're putting a ton of time in where we put a lot of time and thought into it. But they do have something.
Dan Johnson: The question is, can we talk to them to maybe displace this very rudimentary thing that they have with something that's a lot more robust that we could provide? Does that make sense? Is there a way to work around that issue?
Mike Kelly: Yeah. Got it. When you are going out in the sales cycle, what is that conversation look like? Do you find that you're doing an education on like why their current solution isn't working for them? Or are they like, "No. I see it," like "I'm in," like "Let's setup a trial and go." Walk me through a typical sales call.
Dan Johnson: Well, I think it's interesting in general just about the sales process. We talk a lot about product market fit and everything else. And I think as entrepreneurs, we think a lot about building something that people would like, but we don't probably spend enough time talking about what's the sales market fit, or as we used to call the sell strategy, how we're gonna get this product out there, or how we gonna get it in the hands of people, and what's gonna be that process of introducing this product.
Dan Johnson: And so, we've worked a lot, and I've tried a lot of different things. And I think we've kind of refined that down. For us, it comes down to being able to demo the product and being able to explain it. Pretty quickly, people can see the benefit. In fact, they will come up to us and say, "Wow, we've been looking for something like this," or "This is a major pain for us, and you solved the problem."
Dan Johnson: What we found as far as from a sales process, it might be a little counterintuitive, but if we can get the administrative personnel in that company on our side, it's sold. We're really left selling the owners, or the CEOs, or the operators, and we're more selling the people that are actually having to deal with it day-to-day. And they'll carry the water for us-
Mike Kelly: Because they're the ones who have to run down the photos. I mean, you know, right?
Dan Johnson: Right, exactly. They're the ones having to make 10 phone calls to the same person saying, "Hey, we've got to submit this insurance claim. We need these photos, and I've been trying to get them for three days. And I call you every day," and this eliminates that. And so, if you can get that admin person, pretty quickly, they like, "Look, we need this," and they carry the water, and they help get it done. Once it's implemented, then they're just like, "This is the greatest thing I've really ever done," because it's just such a big part of what they have to do.
Mike Kelly: To go back to that one competitor who you don't have to call them out by any stretch. But do you do any ongoing monitoring of that competitor?
Dan Johnson: Well, we haven't yet, but we are probably gonna do a little bit more that. We've seen that they've visited our stuff. I mean, we understand that. But we've talked to him briefly at a trade show. But it really is not something that's become ... We actually never ran across them talking to a company or a prospect. And so, it's a pretty big market. It's such a big market. And they're fairly early stage as well, so I think that we haven't bumped into each other too much. That may be something down the road we do. We're not doing a lot of that now.
Mike Kelly: If you're coming up against niched CRMs everywhere you go, then maybe you're not gonna hit any of those. I guess, one of the things that occurs to me is if you were coming up against, let's say, Salesforce or whoever, the HubSpot. Have you come across anybody enough in the sales cycle that you start to get worried that what we're doing, while it's a full robust software package for us, for them, it could maybe just be a feature, and maybe sometimes they can do pretty quick? Does that enter your calculation? What you guys doing to hedge against that?
Dan Johnson: Well, I do think that the complexity of what we built and the depth of it is, it would be very hard, I think, for them, or not very desirous of them to put that much resources into doing that one specific thing when they're trying to do 15 things. So, I think it's something we need to be aware of, and we need to think about how we can work around that. But I also think that we need to say, let's have a superior technological product here that we can go to them and say, “Look, I know you're doing this, but you're kind of doing it in a rudimentary way. Maybe there's a way we could work together on this, and we could really improve the quality of your product by bringing our product into it. We've spent two and a half years developing this. It's very robust. It's been our singular focus. And so, this is something we could really … It would be a huge advantage for you."
Mike Kelly: So, looking across the current products; Jobme, FlatZap, Call Deck. I think it's Call Deck doesn't hit ... I mean, obviously, mobile is a big component to all three of them. FlatZap and Jobme both have a little bit of geolocation focus with each of them, probably not so much with Call Deck or is there a piece of that-
Dan Johnson: Well, no. I think those are the two. And I think a lot of the other things we're doing are very much geolocation-oriented.
Mike Kelly: Yeah. So, talk about that a little bit, why did you guys pick some of the themes that you picked when you thought about the different products that you wanted to ideate against and/or prototype. And is that just built on the strength that you guys have? Like, somebody on the team has deep geolocation experience. Where did the ideation take you to get to these products?
Dan Johnson: Well, I think it's a great question. I've always had an affinity toward this geolocation and really believed for a very long time that that's where the real opportunity lies, especially in mobile technology. And you see it every day now. But I probably was thinking about that way before it's become so commonplace. I think, now, there's a tremendous opportunity to take that geolocation ability and apply it to a number of different types of software products that can help solve problems on the business front or in different ways. And so, I think it opens up a whole new possibility of all these different niche products out there that creates a lot of opportunity. And so, we think it's a very rich opportunity environment, and we look for those. And we think geolocations are just a big part of that.
Mike Kelly: So, you don't have to talk about potential future product ideas. But when you think about just macro level trends, whether mobile or other technologies, that you see coming down the pipeline, which of those have you excited when you think about, like, oh yeah. When that becomes real, like when augmented reality becomes ubiquitous and it's actually real, like … Yeah. I'm super excited about the ways we can apply that in business. And it doesn't have to be that. When you look out in the future, what are the things that you see that have you as excited as maybe geolocation or some of the other stuff you you've done?
Dan Johnson: Well, I think there's still a lot of opportunity in geolocation. What's happening now, more satellites are being launched to be able to really refine the accuracy of the geolocation more and more, and more. And so, that refinement creates a lot of opportunities, because the more accurate that is, the more things that you can do with it. And so, we're doing things that are very defined level now, but it's gonna get even much better as we follow the different trade publications on this kind of thing. There's just a lot of things that are coming out that's gonna make that even better.
Dan Johnson: I think that, for us, augmented reality is a huge thing. We actually have some preliminary work on some stuff. We're working on, on that, right now. And there is a huge future potential to implement that into technology to benefit the way that companies operate, and the way that they collect information, the way that they manage information. I still think that cloud computing is still a huge piece of it. It all just come together, I think the mobile cloud computing, and even going back to managing all through a dashboard. I mean, all these things coming together, really, you can really do a lot of really interesting things now.
Mike Kelly: I'm interested. What's your background?
Dan Johnson: My background is, am an experienced entrepreneur. I had a publishing media company that I helped co-found, that ultimately was acquired. I grew up from a very small single-room office into a national company. And so, this is another round, and this is really exciting, because this is very fresh and early and-
Mike Kelly: Publishing media to mobile apps, so another jump.
Dan Johnson: Well, you know, in publishing media or even involved not just publishing, but a lot of media. So, there was a lot of website stuff that was involved in that, too. But, you know, you got a change with the times. And I think you got to persevere as an entrepreneur, and you got to do different things, and you got to keep adapting. So, really excited about what's going on.
Mike Kelly: Are you game to talk a little bit of inside baseball around App Tool Werks, and maybe how you guys structure some of these things?
Dan Johnson: As far as the way we structure the, I guess, the business or the-
Mike Kelly: Yeah, the ventures. I'm totally interested. It's like, so FlatZap, its own company is called like its own company Jobme?
Dan Johnson: That's a great question. Right now …
Mike Kelly: By the way, you're allowed to say no.
Dan Johnson: No, I understand that. I don't think there's any trade secrets there or anything like that. I think we've been so focused on some of the iteration and some of the work that we've been doing that, and we haven't worried about the structure so much. But ultimately, I think that's probably an open discussion, how we're gonna ultimately do that. And if we did take outside investment, which we have not done yet. We still funded everything.
Mike Kelly: Hang on. You can't beat me to my questions. That's not ...
Dan Johnson: That's a good one. But that might require a different structure if we decided to take it, say, on a particular product, or we just did it across the whole company.
Mike Kelly: Or even, obviously, the dream scenario. Somebody comes along and it's just like, “Hey. I'm gonna buy the FlatZap thing.”
Dan Johnson: Yeah, buy it. Exactly.
Mike Kelly: Put it together, hand it off. And it's like, we haven't done that yet.
Dan Johnson: I think what we think about here is we think, if we develop these products, we push them out, maybe there is one that spins off, or it gets acquired, or something like that. And that those resources go back to the main company, and we continue to iterate, and innovate, and create things. And so, that also might come into play when we're thinking about how to structure these various services that we're offering.
Mike Kelly: How big is the team now?
Dan Johnson: It's pretty small. There's like five in one place. And then we have some distributive workforce, probably about 15 total. Yeah.
Mike Kelly: Nice.
Dan Johnson: We get a lot of work done, a lot of late nights.
Mike Kelly: I know how that goes.
Dan Johnson: I'm sure.
Mike Kelly: So, you're six months into the FlatZap experiment. Is that about right, sales wise?
Dan Johnson: Yeah.
Mike Kelly: 10,000 photos a month? That's pretty good. Just doing this quick math. Talk about the next 12 months-ish or whatever timeline you guys think in, in terms of go-to market strategy. So, I'd love to know, like, early sales are one thing. But when you think about like, no, no, we're ready to light this thing up. Here's how we're thinking about marketing. Here's how we're thinking about where we wanna be physically. Here's what we're thinking from a sales perspective. Do you share like, "This is how we think in the next 6, 12 months," whatever that timeline is, "We're really gonna get this to be a household name in the industries that we want to be in."
Dan Johnson: Well, I think that's a really good question. And they all come around like this one. A couple central themes. One is, we really wanted to get this closest perfection as we could to the sales process, and how we were gonna most efficiently market the most cost-effectively way we were gonna market them, the most efficient way we're gonna market and use time. And so, we start out with a very small sales staff to do that. Once we get that down, then our intention is to say, "Okay. Now, we've got that. Now, we're gonna expand the sales staff using that process." And so, that's kind of where we're at. It kind of probably at the end of the refining process. And now that we've got that down, we can go ahead and start to scale it internally.
Dan Johnson: Then it comes down to the analytics of what's the conversions, what's the numbers, how many contacts, how many can a person make, how many demos can we do, how many onboarding, all the different sales matrix that we need to do.
Dan Johnson: And I said, we're still refining that, but I think once we get comfortable with that, then we would scale by adding more personnel to duplicate that process.
Mike Kelly: Do you think this is always gonna be a sales-driven product, not necessarily a marketing-driven product?
Dan Johnson: Boy, we tried some straight up marketing. It was not very successful for us. We found more success through sales and through demos.
Mike Kelly: It doesn't surprise me.
Dan Johnson: It's that kind of product. It requires a little bit of education, a little bit more identifying the problem and understanding the pain point, and then saying, "Here's our solution to it." And so, it requires a little bit more of a story.
Dan Johnson: And the other thing I was gonna say about the scaling is that the scaling is also determinate on capital. So, for us, part of the decision-
Mike Kelly: It's free to scale.
Dan Johnson: Right, it's free. It doesn't cost a dime. So, for us, before the ideas is, is okay, now that we've develop this process, do we need to bring in capital to expand it faster? Or do we just grow organically? And that's something that we're gonna have to decide, I think.
Mike Kelly: Switch back to insider baseball now for App Tool Werks. One of the challenges I could foresee for you, based on my experience, is that as-
Dan Johnson: There's a lot of challenges, I'm sorry.
Mike Kelly: Yeah. But as each of these, you're not gonna … I mean, sadly, not everything's gonna be a winner, but you will get some winners, right?
Dan Johnson: Right.
Mike Kelly: So, let's say FlatZap is a winner. The next one's a winner. Jobme starts to get some traction. As some of these things start to get traction, you're gonna very quickly come up with a leadership deficit-
Dan Johnson: Sure.
Mike Kelly: … is my suspicion, right? Talk to me a little bit about that. It's one thing when you're in ideation mode, and late nights coding, and getting product out the door. Once those things actually start to hit, and you start to scale, and now it's like, wait, who's managing all those salespeople we brought in? Who's doing those investor pitches? Who's doing the legal work and research with the M&A team that wants to buy this product, but not any other ones? Like, all of that stuff takes … And you know this because you've grown and sold a company. What's the strategy for you, guys, around that, and where did you find that leadership?
Dan Johnson: That's a great question. And that comes back to capital, I think, number one. But it isn't just capital. I mean, capital will only get you so far. It gives you the ability to do these things, but the execution on it is really the key. And it is really, really intense when you're doing a lot of things like this with a very small group of people, and you're multitasking across all these different specialties and these different areas of the business. So, that is, I think, a big challenge. It's a challenging time to scale a business. It's a double challenge if you don't have the capital. There's two components in that.
Dan Johnson: And the other part about it is the business gets running out in front of you a little bit, and then you've not done the preparation to go raise capital. Then that also is another, potentially, huge time consumption to do that kind of thing. And so, you're absolutely right. I mean, that is the most challenging part, because you're gonna have to bring in talent, and the business has to take shape as it starts to scale. And that requires more people in more leadership positions, and more people that are going to take on difference possibilities, instead of just a few people doing all of it. And that's a big challenge, and that's something we certainly would have to crossover.
Dan Johnson: I wish I had a better answer for that. The answer is, it's gonna be hard.
Mike Kelly: I mean, especially right now; talent, leadership. I mean, talent is a massive problem for everybody in our market, right? So, it's at every level.
Dan Johnson: It's a huge problem, but it's something that everybody has to face.
Mike Kelly: Well, thanks for the transparency. I love it. Really appreciate it. So, if people want to learn more about FlatZap, where should they go?
Dan Johnson: If FlatZap, then go to FlatZap,com, F-L-A-T-Z-A-P dot com. Certainly, you can find out more there. And then for App Tool Werks, which is the main overall company, if they go to App Tool Werks, it's spelled W-E-R-K-S dot com ... Why we did that? We just want to be cute, I guess. But basically, at the bottom of that page, there's an email address you can add in there, and we'll give you any kind of news updates of any kind of new product updates, or anything that we're doing. So, we'd be happy to keep you informed. And also, we're very happy to get suggestions on various things as well.
Mike Kelly: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time.
Dan Johnson: Thanks. This has been a blast.
Mike Kelly: I really appreciate it.
Dan Johnson: I really enjoyed it.
Mike Kelly: This has been good.
Thank you very much.